Tuesday, 27 September 2011

Three questions on large simple groups and model theory

Yesterday, in the short course on model theory I am currently teaching, I gave the following nice application of downward Lowenheim-Skolem which I found in W. Hodges A Shorter Model Theory:



Thm: Let G be an infinite simple group, and let kappa be an infinite cardinal with kappaleq|G|. Then there exists a simple subgroup HsubsetG with |H|=kappa.



(The proof, which is short but rather clever, is reproduced on p. 10 of http://www.math.uga.edu/~pete/modeltheory2010Chapter2.pdf.)



This example led both the students and I (and, course mechanics aside, I am certainly still a student of model theory) to ask some questions:



1. The theorem is certainly striking, but to guarantee content we need to see an uncountable simple group without, say, an obvious countable simple subgroup. I don't know that many uncountable simple groups. The most familiar examples are linear algebraic groups like operatornamePSLn(F) for F an uncountable field like mathbbR or mathbbC. But this doesn't help, an infinite field has infinite subfields of all infinite cardinalities -- as one does not need Lowenheim-Skolem to see! (I also mentioned the case of a simple Lie group with trivial center, although how different this is from the previous example I'm not sure.) The one good example I know is supplied by the Schreier-Ulam-Baer theorem: let X be an infinite set. Then the quotient of operatornameSym(X) by the normal subgroup of all permutations moving less than |X| elements is a simple group of cardinality 2|X|. (Hmm -- at least it is when X is countably infinite. I'm getting a little nervous about the cardinality of the normal subgroup in the general case. Maybe I want an inaccessible cardinal or somesuch, but I'm getting a little out of my depth.) So:




Are there there other nice examples of uncountable simple groups?




2. At the beginning of the proof of the theorem, I remarked that straightforward application of Lowenheim-Skolem to produce a subgroup H of cardinality kappa which is elementarily embedded in G is not enough, because it is not clear whether the class of simple groups, or its negation, is elementary. Afterwards I wrote this on a sideboard as a question:




Is the class of simple groups (or the class of nonsimple groups) an elementary class?




Someone asked me what techniques one could apply to try to answer a problem like this. Good question!



3. The way I stated Hodges' result above is the way it is in my lecture notes. But when I wrote it on the board, for no particular reason I decided to write kappa<|G| instead of kappaleq|G|. I got asked about this, and was ready with my defense: G itself is a simple subgroup of G of cardinality |G|. But then we mutually remarked that in the case of kappa=|G| we could ask for a proper simple subgroup H of G of cardinality |G|. My response was: well, let's see whether the proof gives us this stronger result. It doesn't. Thus:




Let G be an infinite simple group. Must there exist a proper simple subgroup H of G with |H|=|G|?




Wait, I just remembered about the existence of Tarski monsters. So the answer is no. But what if we require G to be uncountable?

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